ASIA PACIFIC PARLIAMENTARY FORUM

TECHNOLOGICAL COMMITTEE MEETING

Sunday, September 6, 1998 (14:00-17:00)

Mediterraneo Hall, Los Delfines Hotel

 

Opening by Hon. Oswaldo Sandoval, Chairman of the Technological Committee

Chairman:

Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen, it gives me a great deal of pleasure to welcome you to Peru. Most of you have traveled a very long distance and for many hours to be here with us and we appreciate it. We hope that the organization that we have provided for will be such as to make this meeting not only productive, but also a pleasurable one for you. Before we start the proceedings, I will like to ask those of you who may have cellular phones to please turn them off, because I have been told by the translators that the cellular phones interfere with the system.

Further, I would like to entertain a few seconds in trying out the translation systems, please make sure that you have them on and let us make sure that they are working correctly and that you have the system that you need, because, as I understand, the systems are for different languages. This is not a system that you can switch from one language to another. So please try your system on and maybe the translators can speak in the languages in which the translation is supposed to come out, so that the participants may try the system. I will give you a few seconds to please try them on.

Well, everything is alright.

Ladies and gentlemen, this Technological Committee was established in a prior General Assembly and was given a task, which was to prepare a procedure whereby the APPF will benefit from technological advances, so as to be able to comply with the goals of the organization in a way in which, especially with the use and the technology of Internet, will serve as a tool to provide for the purposes of, among others, legislative exchanges.

With that in mind, we have convened this meeting today in order to discuss a document, a draft document that has been prepared by the Peruvian delegation and that has been placed to your consideration well in advanced.

The structure of the meeting today is going to be the following, first of all I will ask the participants to introduce themselves in order for everybody to know who is who and where they come from. Afterwards, I would ask one of my colleagues from the Peruvian delegation to continue chairing the meeting, as I will make the presentation of the APOINT 2001 document on behalf of the Peruvian Congress, after which an open forum will be produced in order for the different delegates to propose amendments or changes to the document. Already there has been a document produced by the Korean delegation that you have been given a copy of. And, at the end of the meeting, which hopefully, and if every thing goes on schedule, we should be through by five o'clock in order to have a bit of time before we go to the reception hosted by Chairman Yasuhiro Nakasone. So that will be the procedure in which we will go today, unless there is a suggestion of going otherwise, which I will of course entertain. Being none, I will ask to the delegates to be kind enough to introduce themselves and we will start from the far left.

Hon. Daniel Hays, Canadian Delegation:

I am Dan Hays, a Senator from Alberta, Canada, and we are attending this Executive Committee Meeting as observer. I'll repeat this again tomorrow at the full meeting. The reason we are here is because we stayed in contact with our neighbor, the United States, and when we discovered that they were unable to have Senator Roth or any other member of the Congress or Senate here, I approached Mr. Nakasone and Chairman Sandoval and it was agreed that we would attend as observers. We were on the working group on the technology originally and we had not maintained that status but we are here and we are looking forward to this meeting to hear the proposal and to hopefully be able to contribute.

Hon. Mr Pichai Vasnasong, Thai Delegation:

My name is Pichai Vasnasong, Senator from Thai delegation and I have my colleague here, Mr. Noppadon Pattama, Member of Parliament from Thailand, and assistant Phanit Laosirirat, Adviser to the delegation.

Mr. Adolfo Amorín, Peruvian Delegation:

My name is Adolfo Amorin and I am one of your hosts. I hope that you will be glad in my country. We are going to try to make the best of our effort so you can be happy in Peru, thank you.

Mr. Francisco Pardo, Peruvian Delegation:

My name is Francisco Pardo, I'm a member of the Congress of Peru and may I say that we are very pleased to have you here.

Ms. Graciela Fernández Baca, Peruvian Delegation:

My name is Graciela Fernández Baca. I'm a young member of the Congress of Peru, you are welcomed.

Mr. Yasuhide Yamanouchi, Japanese Delegation:

My name is Yasuhide Yamanouchi, member of the Japanese delegation, thank you very much.

Mr. Peter Gibson, Australian Delegation:

My name is Peter Gibson. I'm chief of staff to the speaker of the Australian House of Representatives and I extend to the Chairman and to members the apologies of the Australian delegation for being unable to be represented here by a Member of Parliament. Our Prime Minister called unexpected elections one week ago. I am accompanied by a technical advisor, Mr. Nigel Sharp, who is Director of Strategy Development in our Parliamentary Information System Office. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Hon. Soo Myung Cha, Korean Delegation:

My name is Soo Myung Cha, Leader of Korean delegation, let me introduce Korean delegates to you, on my immediate right is the Honorable Kim, Ki-Soo, former Deputy Administrator of the National Policy Administration, on my left is the Honorable Kim, Jong Hak, Deputy Secretary General of the United Liberal Democrats Party, a collision partner of the ruling party, and the other my colleague Moon, Byung Chul, Director of Korean National Assembly, Inter-Parliamentary Organization Division, and Mr. Kim Joon, Protocol Officer and Spanish interpreter. Thank you.

Mr. Daniel Bob, American Delegation:

My name is Dan Bob and I'm special assistant for Asian and Pacific Affairs to Senator Roth. Mr. Chairman, I too would like to send the apologies of the American delegation for not being able to have a Member of Congress to join us, but due to elections in our country and the schedule of the Congress, they were unable to attend. We would like to send our special thanks to the Canadian delegation for graciously offering to come here and assisting. We always appreciate any help we can get from our good friends to the North. Thank you.

Mr. Shigeru Tanaka, Japanese Delegation:

I am the Assistant to the Japanese delegation and Mr. Nakasone. My name is Tanaka. Regarding this Apoint 2001 subject, I have had the pleasure of being a participant since the very beginning, so although I am assistant, I have the pleasure to participate in this meeting again and I look forward to work with you. Thank you.

Mr. Normand Radford, Canadian Delegation:

I would like to introduce myself, my name is Normand Radford, from the Canadian House of Commons' Committees Branch and I am the Executive Secretary of our Inter-Parliamentary Association, which is responsible for the APPF.

Chairman:

Thank you, I will introduce myself, I am Oswaldo Sandoval, I am the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Peruvian Congress, and I have been appointed by my colleagues to be the leader of the Peruvian delegation to this Conference and I am very pleased to be able to be with you. We are old friends already, since many of us have been together for three or four years and I believe that the friendship that has developed will be one of the ways in which our work will be done even in a much better and obviously very pleasant way. Having done this, I would like to ask now my colleague, Mr. Francisco Pardo Mesones, to kindly chair the meeting while I will make the presentation.

The Hon. Francisco Pardo presides over it.

Hon. Oswaldo Sandoval, Peruvian Delegation:

Ladies and gentlemen, you have all received a document called "Apoint 2001", allow me to briefly describe what the intention of the document is, why we put it together as it has been put together and what the objectives of the document are.

Firstly, I will like to explain why we are at the stage in which we are, and to do that I would like to go back to what was established as the vision for the Asia-Pacific region in the 21st Century.

The Vancouver Declaration, which we all approved in January 1997, described the vision of the Asia-Pacific region in the 21st Century in the following terms:

The objective is to turn the Asia-Pacific nations into a big family, this was what Mr. Nakasone said at the beginning of the establishment of the APPF, and the terms in which this was picked up in the vision document approved in Vancouver, were to build a peaceful and prosperous Asia-Pacific community. From there, the Parliament members of the APPF are determined to make the Asia-Pacific community a common ground on which people will be able to live peaceful and prosperous lives. We as parliamentarians do have considerable influence upon the policy making processes of undertaking trust and friendship to promote cooperation in regional policies, security, the economy and culture, through such regional inter-parliamentarian organizations such as this, the APPF, with a view to resolving and preventing the problems faced by this region.

Based on that vision, we all declare and have in mind what the mission of the APPF is, which in a way was established already in the Tokyo Declaration. As you may recall the Tokyo Declaration is the founding document of the APPF and in a concise way it says: "Within the framework of its mission, the APPF must seek with special emphasis, by identifying the regional problems and cooperation, a greater amount of progress towards peace, freedom, democracy and prosperity, the expansion of free trade, of investments, sustainable development and wise environmental policies and the peace and security of the region."

It is precisely what I have just mentioned, the objectives of what APPF stands for, and what are the areas that it covers as its base for study and for the establishment of resolutions throughout the different meetings that we'll have during the year. Now, on the basis of this vision and the mission of APPF, we have proposed what we believe the mission of the Technological Committee should be, and in synthesis we will propose the following as a mission of this Committee:

In the 21st Century, the Parliamentarians that are members of the APPF and particularly the leading Parliamentarians from countries that directly participate in the APPF goals, need to be equipped with suitable technology that will allow them to share timely and qualified information to facilitate exchanges between Parliaments, between Parliamentarians, and the people in general, to cooperate in a more effective manner in the prevention of problems, the solution of problems and regional improvement. The road towards the establishment of Apoint 2001 have the following milestones:

The Tokyo Declaration, as I already mentioned, is the basis of the establishment of the APPF and also of the Apoint 2001 Program, but then further, there were other resolutions such as the one approved in Petchaguri, Thailand, in January 1996, in which it was recommended that the APPF member countries establish an effective inter-parliamentary mechanism, by which legislative exchanges can take place as a normal APPF activity. Further, the Vancouver Declaration of January 1997 approved the establishment of the Asia Pacific Open Information Network. This network, as was stated in the resolution, will include a legislative information exchange so that the legislative experience and knowledge gained by each individual country of the region can be shared by all APPF member countries. Further, there was also a resolution to create a Working Committee to study the establishment of an effective inter-parliamentary mechanism to fulfill the objectives of the Fourth General Meeting of the APPF. Further, we charged one of the APPF member Parliaments with a task of developing and maintaining a website. As you may recall, the country that was entrusted with this objective was precisely the Congress of Peru. And lastly, the resolution on the open information network of the APPF as an inter-parliamentary mechanism for legislative exchanges and the developing of technology was approved in January of this year in Seoul, Korea. I would like to read this resolution completely because it is from there that I will take on my presentation: "Approve the establishment and operation of the APPF homepage website by the Peruvian Parliament, anticipating the further development of such activities in the wider area of the Asia Pacific Open Information Network with the hope that it will be functional by the year 2001. Establish the Working Committee on Technology, comprising Australia, Japan, Korea, Peru and Thailand and other members appointed by the Annual Meeting with Peru as the Inaugural Committee Chairperson.

Encourage the development of the APPF Subregional Information System to promote information exchanges among member Parliaments relating to their specific concerns and linkages with existing international original cooperation programs.

Mandate the Working Committee on Technology to consider collaboration to enhance parliamentary websites.

The formation of APPF web rules, online multilingual environment, financial and technological resources, the concept paper and the work schedule in Japan's Apoint 2001 plan and others and,

Help monitor the progress of the Parliaments' efforts in the Asia Pacific Open Information Network

It is colleagues, and I have taken the time to give you the backgrounds of where we are now, where we are coming from, how is the vision and the mission of the APPF that have suggested us to prepare the mission of this technological group, and I have allowed myself to remind you all, the different resolutions that have preceded the last one that was approved in South Korea and which is the basis on which we prepare this document in front of you now. And I will come to describe the proposed technical part, if I may Mr. Chairman.

So, it is within this context that we have convened this technological working committee meeting in order to receive the viewpoints of each participating member on the objectives to be achieved in the Apoint 2001 Program as a final product. In such a way, there are technicians whom in close cooperation with each other, may start the process of conversations intended to get the goals that we, as guiding management set for them.

In this sense, Peru has prepared a working document summarizing the basic concepts to serve as conceptual framework for a future technical development. The presentation of our proposal will be divided into two parts: the general concept of the plan and its three large working areas. Let me start with the first one:

We understand the Asia Pacific Open Information Network as a technological information system, devised to achieve three objectives: filing, dissemination and information exchange. This is the way we devise the Open Information Network of the APPF to be.

As a filing mechanism, the Apoint 2001 will seek for the participant Parliaments to organize the information necessary to the APPF in databases that may be consulted by or exchanged with other countries, the open or closed levels of these bases will be determined according to the needs of dissemination, exchange, security and others.

Dissemination: as a dissemination mechanism, the APPF will maintain a permanently updated website that will allow it to disseminate the subjects corresponding to the APPF and the progressive advance it is achieving in the fulfillment of the objectives of the region. This site will be formed by a central home page with common information and with links and references to specific sites of the member countries.

As an exchange mechanism, the Apoint 2001 will maintain direct or close linkage between the participants, either through lists of interest or participating in a private network and forums for discussion that appear as common standards for the exchange of information. The following characteristics should be pointed out so as to specify the nature of the Apoint 2001.

First thing, it does not seek to have a static plan and product. As your certainly know, the scientific research and technology used for storage, communication and transfer of information progresses by leaps and bounds, which means that Apoint 2001 must be set up as a permanent work program and a product in constant evolution, so that this tool will be adapted to the changing needs, not only of the APPF member countries but of all those that in some way have to do with the use of our system. Secondly, its organization is based on the use of the existing structure and platforms. Appoint for the purposes of keeping up to date information in its constant evolution. This must, in so far as possible, use the existing structures and platforms in the Parliaments of its member countries. The efforts of the Technological Committee must therefore, focus upon a suitable coordination so as to integrate these existing structures with the objectives of the APPF.

As it may seem to be very complicated, in fact, what this graphic intends to show is that we are not to propose to make expenditures in the way of infrastructure. The idea is to use the existing infrastructure in each one of the Parliaments and to link it in a way that it could be useful to the whole membership.

In the third place, development is based on the use of a multilingual environment. Considering the cultural and linguistic diversity of its participants, and further considering the basic needs for a fluent communication, the Apoint 2001 Plan of the APPF bases its strategy on the use of the English language, considering, however, the use of each native or source language aiming at establishing a multilingual network.

Finally, its development is based on the concept of responsible body and user entities. Due to its dynamic needs, Apoint 2001 needs a decentralized level of operation. That is to say, there should not exist only one database but instead, once the operational mechanism have been specified and detailed, each Parliament of the member countries will achieve the rank of a responsible entity or of a user, as the case may be. This is undoubtedly a strategy that aside of reducing cost will permit all countries participate actively in the maintenance and development of the system. We think that the three above mentioned objectives may be achieved through a series of tools, some already existing, which may be implemented specifically for the APPF. Now I would like to present the products to achieve in the development of our plan. And I want to stress at this point that, the idea is to have APPF use tools that are already in the market. It is not something that we must develop ourselves, but rather use what is being already used by the general population. The product number one is the general website of the APPF for Internet, and this is basically the website which we presented in the last meeting in Korea, with which you are familiar and the details of which will be later presented as we go on with our presentation. So Product Number One, as I said, is the webpage of APPF, which is obviously a modern way of open dissemination of information which is common to all the APPF members, and obviously we intend through this way to disseminate specific information of the different member Parliaments and also of the specific webpages which each member Parliament may decide to prepare with regard to its relationship with APPF. Product Number Two is websites in Internet for all member Parliaments, which means to help member countries that lack this service to implement it, and at this point, I would like to say that there are still certain countries which are members of our organization that do not have websites, namely, the Kingdom of Cambodia, the People's Republic of China, Indonesia, the Popular Republic of Laos, Marshall Islands, Mongolia, Papua New Guinea, Republic of Philippines and Vietnam. It is with pleasure that I would like to mention at this point, that knowing that this was a situation that had to be dealt with, our Congress has developed the book that you have before you. It is the Basic Training Program for the Technological Integration of the APPF Member Countries. This document has been prepared in order to train staff members of Parliaments that do not have a website. And it is with pleasure that I would like to advise you that based on the offer that we made in Seoul, Korea, last January, the Parliament of the Republic of Fiji contacted us and we have already developed a website for them. As a matter of fact, you can see there that the webpage for Fiji is already on line and I would further like to say that actually it was made by themselves. They came over to Peru for three weeks, they took our training course based on this book, that is in front of you, and they themselves with the help of our technicians developed their own website. Further, I would like to advise you that in the month of November we are going to receive in Peru representatives of the Parliament of Vietnam, who are coming also for the same objective. And also, Mongolia has expressed its desire for us to do likewise.

I will continue. Product Number Three is the creation of the APPF Internet. It will be an exclusive net of exchange of information, specifically for one of the tasks that we have been entrusted with, which is producing the legislative exchange. And further, in the presentation, I will show you how we have advanced in this area of legislative exchange.

Product Number Four is the links to external and all databases to be created through HTML.

Product Number Five is the exchange of immediate information through e-mail. This, of course, is something that is already in use by the members and we would like to promote more use of the e-mail in our continuos dealings.

Product Number Six is the membership searchers and exchange of information on subjects of interest for the APPF member countries through lists of interest. The list of interest is something that is widely used in Internet in different types of organizations. We are hoping that we will be able to create lists of interest in our webpage, specifically in the areas of concern to APPF, namely, the politics and security, economy, environment, law and order, human rights, education and cultural exchanges.

Product No. 7 is the creation of Private and Public Forums. This is something which again, is very much widely used in Internet and we believe that in this case we will be able to produce exchanges, not only of information but actually, work done by working groups or other committees that may be established by the APPF.

Product 8 is the implementation and obligation of the file transfer protocol tool, and the technicians understand this quite well.

Product 9 is the use of Tel Net, communications tool.

Product 10 is the use of Net Meeting, and other forms of communication via voice.

Product 11, the use of the Internet Relay Chat, and Product 12 is the use of the teleconference tool.

There will be a time, and I hope it will not be too long, in which we will be able to have a meeting such as this using a teleconference. This is technically possible already, and as a matter of fact I would like to tell you that in our Congress, we already have this tool to be used among the different buildings. Our Congress operates in different buildings.

Furthermore, we also propose eventually the implementation of Video On Demand. That is the production of Compact Disks with video of, for instance, a meeting such as this one, or a General Assembly to be kept in CD ROMs, to be requested by any member at a specific time and for a specific section of the disk. This is possible; this is something that is already of common use in our Parliament. In Peru we have all the different Plenary Sessions stored in CD ROMs, and Members of Parliament are able to request the information from their own computers at their offices at any given time.

So these are the different tools that we believe can be implemented from here to the year 2001, and can be put in use, in order to create conditions for the different programs that the organization will have.

Basically, all of these tools may be classified into two groups. One, the Website, thus I would like to introduce to you a new presentation of the APPF Website that has different implementations than the one you saw last January in South Korea.

Basically, you have on the right side, the guide to different types of information, and on the left, the information where it says Hot Topics, information of present use. Like for instance, we have already information there about the meeting that we are holding just now, we have information on the Webpage of Fiji and also on the Apoint Document.

For instance, what you are looking at now, what you just saw now, is the meeting that we are holding now. So, anywhere in the world, anybody can see what is the Agenda of this meeting. This was placed already in the Internet a few weeks ago. And then we have the information on the next meeting, "Peru, Host Country of the 7^th Annual Meeting". We will put that in line as soon as we approve the new Agenda, and we have all the information here.

The third one, the website of the Parliament of the Republic of Fiji, shows the last website of the member Parliament. That is a very new website of the Parliament of Fiji which we very proudly present to you for the first time, and in which production our Congress participated. We intend to do the same with other Parliaments that may require our help, in two ways, either by sending their technicians here for training, so that the technicians come here to be trained, or else we will send them this document and maybe through e-mail we can help them, you know, like they preparing one part, sending it to us, we will revise it and send it back to them, and so on. So there are two ways by which we can do it. There you have a brief history of Fiji. All of this was eventually done by themselves, by the technicians, they have their new constitution already on line. We have received a very positive information from Fiji with regards to how enthusiastic people in Fiji were to have this already done. Likewise, I would like to tell you that the host for their website is here in Peru, because Fiji, as I understand, does not have the technical resources to maintain a product such as this over there.

On the right, you already saw most of the information that was already established, what is APPF, the Tokyo Declaration, the organization, how it works, the different structure that it has, the General Assemblies and here we have all the information that we have been able to capture on the different General Assemblies, that is, the agenda, the joint comunique and all the resolutions of the APPF since it started. All the resolutions are there so that everybody can review it at any given moment. Also, in the last meeting, we not only put the resolutions but the draft resolutions so that people can actually see what was the intention of each proposed resolution and how it finally came out. Then we have the same information for the Executive Committee meetings. That is, all the information with relation to the Executive Committee meetings, not only the agenda but the resolution and everything that actually took place.

Publications, these are the different publications, the first publications that we already have, the Apoint 2001 document, the training program document. All these documents have been prepared in Adobe Acrobat, and the technicians will understand this very well, because otherwise it will occupy too much space, I think the system is called FTD. All these documents that you have in front of you, for instance, the training program document, is already in the database so it can be reviewed at any time and then further we have citizens participation. This is brand new, this may be of interest to you. This is precisely one of the things that I mentioned before. For instance, the registration for the APPF public forum, this is for the people in general to participate in public forums on the issues that are pertinent to our endeavors. For that of course, it is required that people actually register in it. This is very widely used in our Congress now, people participate in legislative discussions. Whenever there is a bill that is coming out in our Congress, it is placed in the website so anybody can review it and people can actually come in through putting in their information, as you see there, and making their proposals for changes or whatever, so we basically are proposing to have something similar. I understand that it will be a time before people probably will be interested in participating in a forum of this nature, but surprisingly, in our Parliament here in Peru, this is used in a very important way by people who find it of interest to give their opinions on the different issues that concern them. This is a sample of the way that it is now being used here in Peru on different topics; for instance, on education there is a gentleman there, who on August 31 made a suggestion. This is an example of the way it is being used and how it can be done. And lastly, we have related links to all the organizations that are pertinent to the APPF, like the APEC, the ASEAN, the UNITED NATIONS, AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL, THE ANDEAN PARLIAMENT, the PBEC, the PEC, IPU, OAS, etc. And we are also promoting our webpage with these organizations, so that these organizations will link us with their website as well.

I will like now to go to legislative exchange, the idea here is that not only we will have the website as most of you already know, but we will include what we were actually entrusted with, that is, the database for legislative exchange. We have there the database, comparison legislature by countries, by topics, and search. Let us see by countries, one example we have here is in the Republic of Peru, for instance in the issue on economy. We have Legislative Decree 809, which is the General Customs Law, and we have it in the native language and in the English language. So, the idea here is that you can go by country and you can also go by topic, and review the ideas that you want to see in the area of economy, which is one of the areas of interest of the APPF, what does each country have? For instance, in the case of Peru we have the Customs Law in English so that anybody in the area can check how it is and compare it with their own, and maybe take some ideas out of it. Let us see now the Law for Migration-Investment. This is something that may be of interest to others, so the idea is that eventually if everybody participates in this, and of course in order for this legislative exchange to have any meaning, every member must participate and have in their own databases the laws that are pertinent to the organization on the different issues that have been determined as the issues that are of interest to us. For instance, education and cultural exchange, we have there the General Education Law. On the area of environment, for instance, we have the Organic Law for Sustainable Utilization of Natural Resources. This is a very important law that we have just introduced, it was approved in our Congress in the last legislature. So, if we have the information per country and per topic, then we can do comparative legislation. And the same applies to human rights, law and order, politics and security. First we saw it by countries, now we have it by topics, there for instance, you want to see on economy, Republic of Peru, and then what we can do is to make it for instance, by topics, economy, and then we can put another subject like Customs Law and then we place the Customs Law of all the countries of APPF in order to make it comparative. What we have done here is an example, and obviously we have only used Peru because that is the only information we have so far. Hopefully, if we approve this program, each country will produce its own databases to which we will link. So the idea is not that we will put all the laws in our own computer. No. The idea is that each country in their own computer will have the databases, and we will just by links extract it from their databases to the website so that anybody who wishes may see it. So that this is the information regarding legislative exchange.

And then we have another topic for search. For example, for legislative exchange purposes, we can search either by country or by topic in order to find, for instance, child. There is a law, the law establishing a national system for child and adolescent, code of the child and adolescent. You see. So there is a search system that we have also produced in order to find out what is available.

Then, there is a site map, which is something too technical. There we have all the information that is available up to the last detail.

I do not want to continue any further because I've taken enough of your time, but ladies and gentlemen, this is what we are proposing. I know it can be very technical in some parts, it can be interesting or not in others, but the proposal of the Congress of Peru is that, with the suggestions that I am sure we will receive, and there is one already in the floor by Korea, this Committee approves a document of this sort so that we will continue working, if it is approved as it is or with the changes that have been proposed, with the collaboration of all the membership. As you all understand, this is only possible if each Parliament produces its own database and if each Parliament makes available the information that is required in order for this system to have any meaning.

Having said that Mr. Chairman, I thank the members for having listened to so attentively. Thank you very much.

Chairman:

Thank you Mr. Sandoval. The debate is open if any delegate has something to ask, he is welcomed.

Yes, the representative of Thailand.

 

Hon. Noppadon Pattama, Thai Delegation:

My name is Noppadon Pattama, I am a delegate from Thailand. We would like to ask you about the essential information to be proposed by each Parliament. We should decide a pattern of information, like constitutions, details of members of Parliament, procedural rules or rules governing the meetings of Parliament, or the so called parliamentary procedures, and with respect to laws, I think it would be useful if we decide essential laws that would be useful for consideration or to be put on your data base. And I would like to ask you the second question about the financial aspect of financial and technological resources of the website. Those were my two questions, thank you.

Hon. Sandoval, Peruvian Delegation:

Thank you. Yes, obviously the first document that must be put in the database is the Constitution of each country, absolutely agree. We have not placed it there because, although we have already made our own translation, it needs to be approved, because even though it is not an official document, it carries some way that it is placed in our website. But yes, I agree. Some basic documents which are absolutely essential, are the Constitution, the Parliament procedures of each one of the Parliaments, and the laws that are to be there, should be those pertinent to the six objectives of the APPF, which are established in the documents. Economics, Politics and Security, Environment, Law and Order, Human Rights and Educational and Cultural Exchange. Obviously these topics are so wide, so I agree maybe we should come to some sort of an agreement, out of those, where do we start. So this is something that maybe we can discuss at a given moment, or maybe we can even allow our technicians to get together, to discuss those details later on or tomorrow. As far as the financial concerns, I mean, how is this going to be financed, we already mentioned in the proposal in Korea this year in January, that all the expenses which relate to the APPF website will be borne by the Peruvian Parliament. We are already doing it. Just to tell you, we had to enlarge our infrastructure, we added more servers and different sophisticated communication equipment, in order to allow this. We will be happy to continue hosting the website and hosting and pushing for the legislative exchange system, as far as all the technologies are concerned. Obviously the expenses, if any, of each Parliament to produce the information to be placed into the website, will correspond to each Parliament. As we all know, APPF does not have a Central Secretariat and does not request from the members any type of contribution. Normally, for meetings such as this one, all the related expenses are paid by the host country. So I think this is a good idea, this is a good way to do it, so we are not requesting any members to contribute in any way for this task. The basic aspect for the infrastructure of the website will continue being carried out by the Peruvian Congress. I hope I have answered the questions, thank you.

Chairman:

Thank you Mr. Sandoval, any other question?

Mr. Daniel Bob, American Delegation:

First, I want to thank Mr. Sandoval for that very useful presentation. My question is about the existing linkages to the websites currently available. For example the United States Congress has a website called Tamis, which links into all the legislation proposed on a daily basis, all the discussion that is taking place on the floor of the House and the Senate is recorded and access to all the public laws. The U.S. Code links to all the members in Congress and so forth. Has that linkage been established and is that, would you say, sufficient for the purposes you are trying to do?

Hon. Oswaldo Sandoval, Peruvian Delegation:

Yes, Dan, I will answer you by showing you the United States website, yes, we are linked to all the member countries that have a website.

To answer your question, the APPF website is linked to all the member countries that have a website, for those that do not have one, we have created basic information on the Parliament, only basic I must say, and yes, many Parliaments have in their website very important information, which of course we all can use, and just as the representative of the United States mentioned, obviously, in the webpage of the United States House of Representatives, there is a very varied amount of information, we can access to the library of Congress, etc. But what we are talking about with regard to the legislative exchange, is that what will be required is that, for instance, the United States makes available in their own website or in their own data base --it does not have to be in the website-- certain information already distinguished that is of interest to the APPF and to which, through our web site, we can access directly. That is the library of the Congress of the United States, so I do not know if that answers your question directly, Dan.

Mr. Daniel Bob, American Delegation:

I guess what I am asking is if there is more than what is required by the United States, for example, or any of the other countries with current websites. Because all that information is available by linking into the website you just brought up, for example, it is just a matter of the person requesting the information who simply goes into a link and then makes a search. I am not sure if there are more, that the U.S. has to do or other countries that already have websites such as this.

Hon. Oswaldo Sandoval, Peruvian Delegation:

The information is there, in the web page of the United States House of Representatives in this case. What will be required, is for that same information or part of it, actually, to be available in a way which is pertinent to the six topics of the APPF. So, what will be required is that the United States Congress, for instance, in the area of economics decides which of the many laws are pertinent to APPF, and tells us, for instance, which they are, so that we can make links directly to those laws and not to all the laws of the United States, because otherwise it will take the user forever to be able to reach exactly what he needs. I do not know if I am making myself clear.

For instance, there is a representative of Korea who is making a law for customs in Korea, and he wishes to know how the other members of APPF, how their customs laws are. There are two ways to do that. He will either navigate through each web page of each Parliament and try to find which are the laws that are pertinent to him, or else, each country, each Parliament establishes which is the law that is interesting to the membership among them, hopefully, the General Law of Customs, and places the link to that in the webpage of APPF, so that when he asks which are the laws of customs for the different countries, immediately all these laws come to that page. He does not have to go and search for each one of them in each one of the countries.

Can you imagine in the United States, in Economics, how many laws there might be? Thousands and thousands. You see, it will take him forever, so really it is not a very difficult task, because the idea is only that the United States, as Peru or whatever decides which they believe are the laws that may be interesting to the rest. Let's bear this in mind, the Asia Pacific Area is trying to be in the year 2010 and 2020 a Common Market, it is trying to integrate their economies, one way or another. To do that, our task as Parliamentarians, I believe is to make available the tools for those objectives. One of the tools, for instance, is to have laws that are similar as much as possible. To do that, we must start comparing our laws, varied or not. We must make available the information in a way which is not so difficult to attain. That is the idea of the Legislative Exchange System. And I would like to go one point back, when the representative of Thailand asked me the question about Finances, I would like to mention that, when the representatives of Fiji came for training in Peru, all their expenses were their airline tickets, hotel and their bills, I believe I do not know; but all the training program was paid by us.

Thank you Mr. Sandoval.

Korea:

Thank you very much Mr. Chairman. Back in our country I am a former member of Parliament serving the Parliament members. It is a pleasure for me to be participating in this impressive conference. Also it is a privilege to talk on behalf of the Korean delegation. Before coming to this country to participate in this conference, our delegation started fully the basic framework of this project, and prepared a document to present in this conference. I would like to read it.

Before getting into my statement, I would like to express my appreciation to Mr. Sandoval, leader of the Peruvian delegation for his excellent, detailed and comprehensive presentation on this work. Also, I would like to express my deepest appreciation for the extraordinary report Peru has made for the establishment of Apoint 2001. The Apoint 2001, I believe, is the most timely report and represents the next century we are approaching, which is sure to be the century of the Asia Pacific Region.

I would like to comment, based on the suggestion made by Peru, which mentioned two principles for the establishment for Apoint 2001, mainly the principle of the non static plan and products and the principle of utilizing existing structures and platforms. These principles underscore the need for the active participation of the member states, particularly their voluntary provision of information. The system structure based on twelve products is well designed for covering all the major functions, including database linkage function, communication function and forum function.

As Peru pointed out, all this would be meaningless without the voluntary and active efforts and cooperation by the member states; therefore, the Korean Delegation is of the opinion that there should be role assignments for the successful setting up of the Apoint 2001.

First, each and every member state should establish its basic infrastructure and database. Second, member states of the Technological Committee should develop creative technological tools, such as the Multilingual Service System being developed by Japan, and finally, the host nation, Peru, should serve as a center for Appoint 2001.

Korea, as member of the Technological Committee, would like to volunteer to develop and maintain the Web Hosting Service for our subregional states in order to strengthen their communication function of Apoint 2001, particularly the e-mail service. To clear all assignments, however, all this should be preceded by the division of the member states into a number of subdivisions and the designation of a subregion regional host, as agreed in the Sixth APPF Annual Meeting held in South Korea.

Thank you very much

Chairman:

Thank you Mr. Kim. Now, Mr. Sandoval, would you like to make any comments on this?

Hon. Sandoval, Peruvian Delegation:

Yes Mr. Chairman

First of all, thank you for your kindness, we appreciate your support and your kind words. I would like to make a comment on the point C of the document presented by Korea, in which they mention that it will be very difficult to establish the database. I would like to make ourselves clear. We are not proposing to have a database for all the laws of all the countries. What we are proposing is that a website has direct links to the laws of the databases that you already have in your own websites. Each of us in our Parliaments has already not only the laws but also even the bills, and in our own websites we can of course access to them.

What we require for each country is to fill out this form, the one that is in the screen now. For instance, if Peru wants to place a law there, we put down Republic of Peru and the topic. Those are the six topics that pertain to the APPF, so we choose whatever, then we put type of law, what kind of a law it is, if it is a decree, a legislative resolution, whatever, different types of documents, then the title or the number, most of us have number under our laws, then the title, publication date and the URL, the Unique Resource Locator, which is the exact link to the law with the address. So all we need is for you to write down the address there and to make an abstract of the law, if you wish. Normally, all the laws have an abstract already in a wrong database. So, to respond to point C in the Korean Delegations's proposal, we do not intend to create a wrong database for all the laws, that would be very expensive, and to do that we do not volunteer . It would be almost impossible. We do volunteer and ask you to volunteer, in establishing which addresses or which laws pertaining to the six topics of APPF, you wish to contribute to the website. And to do that you only have to fill out that form, that's all. It is very simple, very, very simple. So, this is not contradictory to the global legal information network that is being produced, because this is something produced for our own purposes, for our own interest, the six topics that we now all adhere to. And as far as the proposal of Korea to help out those countries that do not have a website, we welcome that. We offered that in Korea last year, we already have three countries that have asked us to help. If Korea is also going to help with that, I think we can do it faster. Let us not forget that there are about 11 countries that do not have a website. If each one of the member countries that already has it, will take 2 members, we can do it quickly, you see?, and obviously at less expense for the members, because obviously, for the members from Vietnam to come to Peru is very expensive, it would be much less expensive if they could do it in Thailand or in Korea, or whatever. So I think that it is a great idea, and I am very pleased to say that it is wonderful that other countries are also hoping and planning to help out in this endeavor. I think that it is wonderful, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman:

Thank you, Mr. Sandoval. I do not know if the Korean Delegation has any other comment to make.

The Canadian Delegation, please:

CANADA:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First, a comment to Oswaldo Sandoval. I am very, very impressed and happy to congratulate Oswaldo and his leadership and vision. The thoroughness of this work and how forward looking it is, is truly impressive, and also the generosity of Peru in their assistance to other countries is equally impressive.

I agree this is an invaluable and necessary communication and research tool. It is unavoidable, we cannot do this. This is where the world is going, and that is why I just said about your work, Oswaldo, is so appropriate. I, on the Canadian side, see that we have a lot of the work already done, as you demonstrated in answering to some of the questions you received, but what I am faced with, I guess, is going to my source of resources (money, time) to try and do some of the things that you have described, to meet this kind of transcendent objectives you have, of being able to compare laws, for instance, in the customs area, to see how we are coming closer together or going farther apart, and deal with that and at least be aware of it, and if we want to do something about it we can, and if we don't, we do not have to, but I see that. But I am going to face this problem. There are other Inter-Parliamentary Associations, the ones that you are familiar with, I do not need to name them, IPU, for instance, the Common Wealth Parliamentary Association and so on. I am not sure what they are doing, and perhaps you can make a comment on that. Is this unique to APPF?, and you may not know. I don't know. But if you do, that will be helpful to me when I go to the source of resources that I have to go to help in this cause. And I guess the other question I have is, there obviously will be within the APPF group, countries which are willing but not able for various reasons to fully participate, and how do you see us in APPF accommodating that? Because there will be some countries that will be able to do all of the things that you have described in the various stages, teleconferencing for instance, just to pick the last item on the series of things that you see as objectives for this exercise. Comment on those two questions please.

Chairman:

Mr. Sandoval please:

Hon. Oswaldo Sandoval, Peruvian Delegation:

Thank you Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman I would like to thank our good friend, Senator Dan Hays for his kind words. You know, it always gives me a lot of pleasure when we hear these expressions, which we take them more based on the kindness of whom is giving them than on our own merits. But I appreciate it very much, Dan.

With regard to other efforts of legislative exchanges in other organizations, I would dare to say that as far as we know and I just checked with our technical people, this might be the first time that a body such as this, is trying to develop an effort of this sort, which obviously is even more difficult because we do not have anybody to rely on or we will have to make our own mistakes. But on the other hand, I think we will proudly show the road to other parts of the world on what roles Parliaments can play in the integration processes, and I do know that integration is very much down along the road in the Asia Pacific region, but we have to start sometime. You have to start somehow. APEC is already advancing quickly I believe through their processes of making decisions more than by enforcing resolutions, by making voluntary commitments to reducing tariffs, to creating similar conditions for commerce and for investments and for finances. It is then the role of the Parliaments to accompany that, with tools such as the ones we are discussing now, and if we can do that maybe who knows, we could be leading the way in other parts of the world for something which, believe me gentlemen, is really very simple. This is very simple. This is not something which is extremely complicated or even something which is extremely expensive. No. This is something that most of our countries, most of our Parliaments already have. And all we have to do is just fill out that little form. That is a good start. Maybe eventually we will find a better way with the use of technology to make it even easier. But I can assure you that it will be tremendous, I believe, to be able to lead the way in a Parliamentary organization such as this, to lead the way in the world in an effort of this sort.

So to answer your first question Dan, as far as I am aware, this is a first one. And I do not recall what was the second comment that you wished that I made.

Hon. Daniel Hays:

The rate of development of the various sub-components or stages in the obvious different capacities of APPF member countries, to achieve these various component stages as you go along and how you would deal with that.

Hon Oswaldo Sandoval, Peruvian Delegation:

The use of the different tools like video conferencing and others. I see it with a lot of optimism, and my optimism is based in the following if I may say so. A humble country such as Peru, that has still a long way to go to compare with the extraordinary development of the economies of some of the countries represented in this room.

A humble Parliament such as ours is already doing it. I mean, the technical resources are there. Normally these resources are being used already by other sectors. The Private Sector, I mean teleconferencing is not unusual in the private Sector. There are Board meetings that are taking place all over the world already. It is only that we, politicians sometimes feel that maybe it is not a good idea to use the tools of the private sector, and maybe it is because I myself am a businessman or was. Maybe I still am, I do not know. You know, it is that I believe we should use these tools. But, to answer the question, yes, it can be done. It is simple, it is not expensive, it is something that as time goes by will be much easier all the time.

It is already being used in the homes, I mean it is not unusual, people who have their children abroad talk via Internet with them and not just voice, but also video. And I tell you this as a father who has two children studying abroad and who uses these resources day on and day off. So yes, it is possible, it is possible. However, knowing the restrictions that there may be in some parts, is that we have placed this as a goal to be accomplished throughout the years up to the year 2001. And when will we accomplish it, it all depends on us. It only depends on us.

Chairman:

Thank you Mr. Sandoval. I think we should permit Mr. Sandoval to rest for a while so we will have a coffee break.

Thank you.

Continued session

Chairman:

I would ask again to the delegations if they have any questions or contributions to the Peruvian delegation information.

Australia:

Thank you Mr. Chairman. I wonder if I could start by saying how much we admire the work that has been done by the Peruvian Congress. We think that the web site that has been established is first class. It is a very, very useful contribution to enhancing a collective identity for our region, for the Asia Pacific Region and we would like to particularly congratulate the Peruvian Congress for the hard work, and for facilitating the training for countries which are yet to emerge with an Internet presence. I have to say Mr. Chairman that we would have some concerns at the proposal set up before this working group, and I center on the extent to which a very ambitious proposal is at the center of it. We wonder whether the expectations been created are in a sense some ambitious, as perhaps to be unrealistic and unattainable, particularly given the different levels of technological capacity across our different member countries. We have talked a little about teleconferencing by the Internet for example. The Australian Parliament looks forward very much to the day when that would be possible, but it is our understanding that as distinct from local area of networking and teleconferencing there, teleconferencing across the Internet is simply not a realistic possibility. At this time we look forward to the day when it is. Similarly, we wonder about the ordering of national databases within the six board categories that we talked about before, and we wonder about the resource implications for each of the national Parliaments in doing this. We wonder who for example in the U.S. Congress, would be continuously monitoring the Tomis database to structure their laws in a compatible way for the exchange of information proposed by Apoint 2001. I certainly from our own point of view, wonder who in our Parliament would constantly do that, and more importantly, who would maintain its currency, keeping it up to date and keeping the links established. We wonder also about the express requirement for our private Intranet or a secure system of exchange of information, and we wonder why that is being put as a high objective. Our Parliament operates publicly, we pride ourselves as a democracy and having our proceedings open. The maintenance of the security network imposes a very high resource implication and we wonder how will that be met. I am sorry to have sounded negative, but I felt obliged to express my speakers' concerns at the proposal as put forward. Having said that, I would like to conclude where I started that the web site as it stands, is a very significant contribution to legislative exchange. It is possible with a couple of clicks from Internet for anyone to get into the member Parliaments, and through them to their own individual structured databases. And there is one last positive suggestion. I wonder whether we could not facilitate legislative exchange and communications by the establishment of a centralized e-mail directory, perhaps located on the website that the Peruvians have established, as a way for individual employees to communicate, to test each others legislative concepts and to exchange information. Thanks very much Mr. Chairman.

Hon. Oswaldo Sandoval, Peruvian Delegation:

Thank you Mr. Chairman.

First of all allow me to once again thank the delegate from Australia for its kind words on the work that we have developed. I would like to address some of the issues that have been brought up on the system that we have presented, which having qualified as probably too ambitious and not realistic. Mr. Chairman to start with, maybe I should try to characterize something which is pertinent to us as Peruvians. And I would like to first say that we all understand obviously our cultural differences. Maybe, one of the cultural differences is reflected in our work. We are normally very ambitious people. We like to attain something, which to others may seem unattainable. And maybe this is something, which may put us in a situation in which we may set ourselves goals that we might not attain. I want to stress one thing Mr. Chairman. If we can count with the help of the other members, we will do this. We have the capabilities. Most of the task is of course on the Peruvian side, and we will be devoted to doing it. Otherwise, we would not have proposed it to start with. We believe it is realistic because we are talking of technology that is already existing. We are not proposing to create anything. We are not proposing to hire programmers, we are not proposing to develop new technologies. No sir. All we are proposing is the use of technology that is already available. I do agree however, that there are certain tools that are not at the level at which they will eventually be, I agree. For instance, videoconferencing via Internet, agreed, is very poor quality. But let us not forget that we are talking of a plan from here to year 2001. And the way in which technology is developing, I will dare to say that by that time or maybe sooner, maybe the situation may have changed. On the other hand, I do appreciate the one concern that has been explained regarding the resources in each Parliament. I do understand that. But you see, the way we see it, is that we do not have to do all this at once. I mean, is not that we have to create a new database as I explained before. The database that we have is already there. And as I was discussing during the coffee break with a gentleman from Canada, he said to me, let us say that I decide that we have a hundred laws in economics, how do I put it in there? I said, first of all each country decides what or how much they want to make available to the system. Let us say that in the economy side you decide to make available 10, 20, 25 laws. All you have to do, is basically fill out one of those forms for each one of those laws. That is to give us the address on how to reach that very law. As a matter of fact, I was just giving these forms, and I think the explanation there is too cumbersome, and it can be shown obviously in a much simpler way. But in the Internet, in the home page, we will describe exactly how to do it, and it is really very simple. Now, who will do it? Obviously each Parliament, we have to decide it how. I will tell you how we are doing it. How our Parliament is dealing with it. What we have done, is to request a person from each committee that is pertinent to this situation, for instance, the people from the economics committee. We have asked them, "in your opinion, which are the laws that are more pertinent to the Asia Pacific goals? Integration, strengthening of commerce, what we all know are pertinent in the economy to the Asia Pacific region". So they came out and told us, which ones are the laws that they think should be placed there. So, for that, all we needed was the advice of one person in the economics committee, normally an advisor. That is all. We told him, give us ten laws that you think are the most important ones for this objective, the Asia Pacific integration. Then, what we did? We went to the people of the technical section and asked them to give us the URL of these laws, which is already in the database, and having that, we filled out the form. That is all, there is no magic in it. You do not really need a lot resources for that. I do understand that the priorities may not seem to be there, but gentlemen and ladies, if APPF is to be more than what it is now, and now I think is a lot, if it is to be more, if we are to contribute to the goals of APEC, which I think is our task, then we must do a little bit of homework, we must do a little bit more than just coming to a meeting like this. We must at least fill out a form for each law that we want to show to the others, that is pertinent to the objectives, and honestly it is not so difficult and you do not require a lot of resources for that, unless obviously you decide that your aim is to place all the laws, on all the different areas of interest in a system. That of course will be a tremendous effort, but you are not being asked that. Let us make a small contribution. Let us say that for each one of the items, we place 5 laws from here to January. We are talking of about 30 laws, so filling out 30 forms. How much resources do you need for that. Because the information is already in your database, you see what I mean, maybe I did not make myself understood and maybe I was suggesting that we should include all the legislation. That is not realistic, but I am suggesting let us say, if we decide 5, 10 whatever is more convenient to you, because as in anything else, what you put in, you get out. So if you are going to use the system, if it is going to be significant to you, you contribute. It all depends on us, let us not forget that several assemblies have told us that legislative exchange was important. If it is important let us do it now. If we decided that it is not important, then we do not do it, but if it is important at least this is our feeling, the Peruvian delegation feeling, that this is something that is worth doing, and we have already done it as you may have seen, and our language is not the English language. Gentlemen, we have had to do something which many of you will not have to do. We have translated the laws into the English language to contribute to the system. You do not have to do it, so if it is a difficult task, it is a more difficult task for those whose native language is not English. But if we are ready to contribute to even do that, I think the least that other Parliaments should do is fill out the form. As far as a non secure network I agree, I have my own concerns about it, and besides why a secure one, there is no reason for it. I agree and I would like to propose Mr. Chairman that in the proposal we change that. There is no reason to have a secure system, as we do not have in our own internal Parliament. I honestly tell you, I let myself be convinced by the technicians. I was thinking as a technician then not as a politician, and now I admit you are right. There should not be a secure network, it should all be open. Thank you Mr. Chairman.

 

Chairman:

Thank you Mr. Sandoval. Now the Australian delegation has something else to contribute, please.

Australia:

Thanks Mr. Chairman. I just wondered if you might like to comment on the e-mail directory suggestion.

Hon. Oswaldo Sandoval, Peruvian Delegation:

I am sorry. I did not quite get it.

Australia:

Mr. Chairman with your permission I would like to ask the technical advisor to make a suggestion.

Technical Advisor, Australian Delegation

Yes, what we were actually suggesting was that we could set up a centralized directory, perhaps on the Peruvian website, which would allow all members of this group and the entire APPF secretariat top group to register their e-mail addresses, contact information, a profile cd, that kind of thing and have that centrally maintained as a sort of a telephone directory for the e-mail, which would be a very useful tool to have and not too difficult to maintain. Thank you.

 

Hon. Oswaldo Sandoval, Peruvian Delegation:

Yes, I am sorry I did not get it originally. Yes that is absolutely possible and we will be more than happy to do that. We will be more than happy to create a database with all the e-mails of everybody and those who may not have it, we will create it for them, we'll be happy to do that. I am already committing the resources of the Congress of Peru to do that, because once again you know it is not tremendously difficult.

Thailand:

I would like to add essential legislation that should be put, for example, on economy, foreign exchange, loan investment, or learning in business law, when you are going to another country, you are going to study laws; law should be studied not by any Parliamentarians, but by businessmen as well, who are interested in the laws of other countries. For example, a bankruptcy law, exchange controls should be put in. I think we should not allow each particular country to judge which law should be put in. I think we should at least set a guideline, essential information or essential legislation that should be put in, otherwise we would be living in the edge of over information and, for example, laws relating to the environmental issue, laws governing toxic, industrial waste, for example, or laws relating to customs revenue derived from international trade, or even the Election Laws or laws relating to political parties, for example. We can set a guideline to be determined by the Executive Committee Meeting of the General Assembly. Thank you.

Hon. Oswaldo Sandoval, Peruvian Delegation:

Mr. Chairman, I think this is a very interesting proposal, I would like to say yes. The gentleman from Thailand prepared the first draft, of which maybe the Laws that should be put in. I think this is a very valuable contribution, because in fact, otherwise the different polemists might put things that are interesting to them, but may not be possible to precisely compare, because they will be so different from one another. So, probably as part of our continuous progress towards the Apoint 2001, the Thai delegation may be interested Mr. Chairman, with making that proposal which we can review by e-mail among the members of the Committee and then incorporate it into the proposal of the General Assembly.

Thailand:

Mr. Chairman, we are more than happy to come up with the first draft and send it to you, and you can distribute to all participating countries. Thank you.

Mr. Daniel Bob, American Delegation:

Thank you Mr. Chairman. I would like to go back to the suggestion made by Australia, on the idea of maintaining this database of laws. First, I do want to say that what Peru has done is extremely useful. I already use this website myself, and have passed it on to the other participants from the United States in APPF and they find it very useful as well. When it comes to particular laws that might have relevance to the other countries, I have a number of concerns. First of all, in the United States Congress each year proposes something along the lines of 15,000 bills. We have thousands of hearings to assess those bills, thousands of documents prepared by our Library of Congress in what is called the Congressional Research Service, debate on the floor is in the House of Senate. All this information is already accessible through Tomis When you end up with a law, it is almost as important to see how you got there, as it is to see what the final law is, and given the volume of a discussion debate, introduction of bills, conferencing the bills, and so forth, it becomes very difficult for someone to serve as a filter to decide what is important and what is not important, and I think one of the most useful things about the Internet, is that each person as they go through and try to find out whatever information they are seeking, can specify through these various search programs what they want. If we, for example, were to put a bill registered through or a law registered as you currently have, you would end up simply with that law, and I believe that it would be more difficult to gain access to the related bills that were introduced, the discussions that took place in hearings, the documents that were prepared by the Library of Congress or the Congressional Research Service and so forth. Whereas going simply through the current website that we have and calling up, say, environmental issue, you will be given a list of all the bills with hyper links to all the debate and so forth, so in some ways, I think what might happen is that we would be limiting people's understanding of how a law came about, what the discussion was, by using the system that you are proposing, as opposed to having individuals who want access to this information. It may take them a little bit longer to work their way through, but because each person has a very specific thing that they are seeking, you really do have to go through that process to get it. The volume of material produced in the United States Congress is vast. Each day we get a published record of all the proceedings which is about an inch or two inches thick, and the suggestion of the Australian Delegation that this may be rather unmanageable, I think has some merit, at least in the case of the United States.

Thank You.

Hon. Oswaldo Sandoval, Peruvian Delegation:

Mr. Chairman, again thank you for your kind words. Yes, we politicians produce a lot of words, which are expressed in papers and in bites. That, I understand perfectly and proportionally this happens, I guess, in every Parliament around the world. The idea here, I believe, is precisely not to be too ambitious with regard to what we want to share with each other in this system. Maybe a time will come when through sources that I cannot envision right now, we might not have to do anything in order to come to the database of each Parliament and chose whatever is needed, in order to be able to compare with other laws of other countries. In the meantime, the only thing we have been able to come up with, and unless somebody tells us there is a better way, or while there is a better way, we believe that this is a practical way to do it, to come up and decide, and I know the decision could be erroneous in some ways, to decide which are the laws that may be more interesting to the other members of the APPF, because if not, what is the alternative? We have been mandated to prepare a legislative exchange mechanism. We have come up with a system. We, at this point, do not know of any better one. If some of the delegates may wish to contribute with another system, of course, I am sure we would all be very happy to listen to that, but we have to have a system to come up and present first to the Executive Committee and, eventually, to the General Assembly. So, Mr. Chairman, I do not know, I am not quite sure if I understand, if what is being suggested is that we do not continue in this route. If that should be the case, I would like to know which other route we should follow. But believe me, let us give it a try, we could give it a try, as I said, if the friends of Thailand come up with some ideas of which laws, and if each one of us decides that we can put in ten or five laws sure, if I understand if what is being suggested is that we do not continue in this route, is that should be the case, I would like to know which other route we should follow, but we leave it, let us give it a try, we could give it a try, as I said if the Prince of Thailand comes out with some ideas of which laws and if each one of us you know, decide that we can put in ten or five laws per issue, I mean we have something. Maybe, and I agree with that, maybe we are missing out something, correct?, but if somebody is really keen for something in particular, he would look it out, but if somebody just wants to have an idea, for instance, on customs laws, at least he will have something to base itself with, out of ten, fifteen or twenty countries in the area, at least that is one step forward. I do agree, this is not the solution to everything but is one step and obviously the first one step is the most difficult one. And that is the one that we are proposing that we make today. As I said, this is not heaven, this is not the perfect solution, but is one step as little as it may seem, I think it would be a significant step on the mandate that we have been given and to which we have to respond. .

Chairman:

Now, the United States

Mr. Daniel Bob, American Delegation

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I did not want to suggest at all that the premise that you are operating under, which is greater access to legislation from other countries, is not the route to go. I think that it is very important and I applaud you on those efforts, but I was trying to suggest that some of that currently exists, since I am only really familiar with our own websites, all that information is there, it requires you to go through some of it. But if what you are suggesting is at least a first step, with Thailand taking the lead, and then suggesting just a limited number of issues, I think that it's fine, because parallel to that we have already, at least in the case of the United States and I am sure than in many other countries, you have access to everything. So I did not mean in any way to suggest that you are not going on the right path, it was just a question about managing how to best achieve that.

Chairman:

Thank you, yes the delegate from Canada and afterwards the delegate from Japan.

Canada

The objective, as I understand it, is to make information that is available to the public more readily accessible through organizing it in a certain way. To do it with respect to every interest area, legal interest area in terms of the laws that a country has, would be a rather large undertaking; but I can think, for instance, of the environmental issue of climate change, which is an international issue of debate at the present time, where there are considerable differences to be able to access through a database such as the one that Peru proposes for this website. It would be useful in terms of where we are at, at a particular point in time, it clearly would not give us the background or the reasons that countries did or did not do things or what they were trying to do through voluntary measures, which would not be reflected in a legislative mandate, but nonetheless, it would be a good starting point. But I can see the point that it would not take you through all of the information you will need to know to fully appreciate what it was, let us say, that the United States was doing at a particular point in time on that file, because you will have to go into the issues that were in the course of being decided as opposed to having being decided and reflected in legislation. However, I still think, given the qualifier, that in this case it will be useful in some of these areas to have the black letter, it would be useful in some of these areas to have the Black Letter Law or whatever represents the current legislative state in a series of countries such as APPF members. We can not do everything, that is true, but we could do some useful things. I think just offering these words and support, it would do something for us, it would not do everything.

Hon. Oswaldo Sandoval, Peruvian Delegation:

Mr. Chairman, first of all, thank you for your kind supporting words, Senator Hays, but I would like to tell you something. Yes, it is possible to do what Don Bob says; for instance, if we are to look at a Customs Law again, in the United States, if we want to compare Customs Laws in the Americas, let us say, the United States, Canada, Mexico, Peru and Chile, so you go by topics and then you go to the United States. When you go to the Customs Law of the United States, from there you can go deeper. Using the United States system, you can go to the draft of the bill, you can go to the discussions and to the hearings and to everything which is already in the database of the United States. Once again, and maybe I have not made myself clear enough, we are not proposing to create a database of laws, what we are proposing, what we are prepared to do, is to create a linkage system to the database already existing. You do not have to reproduce anything, you already have it. All we need to have is the address of that law, and when you get the address of that law, that law, in the United States, for instance, is already linked to the draft and to the discussions that took place and to the hearings. So we are not missing out on debates that took place. It is the same for our system in Peru. You can link, actually our laws can be linked to the drafts and to the discussions and everything. It is possible.

Chairman:

Thank you, Mr. Sandoval.

Japan:

Thank you. Allow me to speak in Japanese. First of all, we would like to thank Mr. Sandoval and the Peruvian Delegation, as well as the comments on Apoint 2001 from Australia, Korea, Thailand. All those concepts have been included in the draft report of Apoint 2001. We really want to express our deep appreciation to your efforts. As I was listening to the discussions, I was thinking about how this project will proceed in the future. There are two categories we can think about. There are countries which do have a homepage for the Parliament or the Congress of each country, but what about those countries which do not have the website of the Congress, how could we cooperate with them. That is the one category of things we have to think about. Mr. Sandoval already mentioned there are some countries which do not have a homepage for the Congress, but have spent a lot of time and money to access to the Peru homepage. But we need to develop a subregion for their development, and for the next General Assembly, probably we should think about how we can help those countries among APPF which do not have a homepage yet. Then, what about the other category of countries which do have a homepage already. Probably we need APPF contacts in some of those countries which do have homepage. APPF homepage is now being developed in Peru but we need a link contact homepage for APPF countries which do already have homepage. With this linkage window or linkage contact in the homepage of each country, the United States or Australia, for example, they can create a linkage for APPF homepage. Each country has a different situation and with regard to access to each country database, we have to think about the different conditions of each country. Each country can decide how the linkage to APPF homepage can be created.

There is another thing I would like to address myself, that is, we do have a homepage which has an e-mail. We can take full advantage of e-mail. Even if some countries do not have a homepage of Congress, many of the congressmen or parliamentarians do have e-mail address of themselves. We can make a full use of such e-mail address of each parliamentarian. In the coming January when we have the General Assembly, we can make efforts of e-mail, creating an e-mail directly of the participating congressmen. This is possible, it is another creative step for developing this project. So first we need to differentiate the APPF countries according to the existence or non existence of paying homepage and then we can take measures for each category. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman:

Any other contribution? I would suggest that Mr. Sandoval makes a resume of all that we have discussed and then we will try to get a resolution out of this. Thank you.

Hon. Oswaldo Sandoval, Peruvian Delegation:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have taken note of some of the things that have been said and I would like to propose that if I leave something out, it may be corrected. I would say that with the corrections that I will mention afterwards, there seems to be consensus regarding the document, the APOINT 2001 document, with the following changes, one being that there should not be a secure network so everything should be an open network. That is one thing everybody agrees with. Second, we would entrust Thailand with a proposed list of types of laws to be placed initially in the legislative exchange system. Further, we all appreciate the proposal of Korea to set up and maintain webpages for Parliaments which do not have one and it will be obviously ideal that if other Parliaments will also propose that, just as Peru has already done it and will continue doing it, because that will put us in the situation that more countries will have homepages in a shorter period of time. Further, the proposal of Australia, that Peru is gladly to accept, is to prepare an e-mail directory, to be part of this system.

Those are the points that I have made note of, Mr. Chairman, and with those additions, and with the amendments to be made on the Appoint 2001 draft document presented by Peru, I will like to propose that this document be approved, unless there are other proposals, of course.

Chairman:

If any delegate has something else to say. Then we all agree to accept the resume of Mr. Sandoval and then we will probably read the final document and make any observations, if you please. Well, then the session will be adjourned. Thank you very much.